David Thomas Tao

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Okay, now we're prepared to be live. Oh boy, you

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got quiet again for a second.

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It's just because I'm nervous. I'm not actually nervous.

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It's like, why would you be nervous?

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Yeah, I'm fine.

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I'm going to just recap my current situation because Tanner

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from Massonomics texted me the other day and said it, did.

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Mike move or where's Mike? And I'm like, Mike is?

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I think Mike is actually in Hawaii today. I think

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he's been in Texas or whatever. He's training the streamer

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named Agent zero through the end of the year, so

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he has not been around, which is why I have

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been reaching out to my friends and anybody that I'm

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interested in talking to and saying, hey, how about coming

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on the podcast and talking to me so that I

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can keep it going because no one is going to

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want to listen to me. Just talk to myself.

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I would listen to that for longer than most would.

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I don't know how long you'd keep me on, but

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but longer than me.

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But you're my friend, and so that has something to

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do with it. I would assume I would. I don't know.

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I don't know, so I'm on here with David Tao,

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somebody who used to be firmly rooted in the fitness

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world who is now not and probably gratefully.

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So I think I ran so fast and far away

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from the fitness world that I got in better shape

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doing it. Oh yeah, basically, you know, like it was.

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I was just like it has changed my relationship with

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wellness and I'm I'm just much healthier now that I'm

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not in the fitness space. And I hate to say it,

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I'm not the only person that's happened to.

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I believe that, you know, I believe that for sure.

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So so you you ran towards other interests that that

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it is a really good reason to talk to you

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at this point. I think that my audience is probably

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particularly interested in the spirit's aspect, but I want to

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talk broadway too, because like that is a that is

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a base that needs to still be developed, Like fitness

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people appreciating what happens on stage.

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I appreciate that. I would like to say that's I

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think there is a lot of crossover between like physical

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culture and live performance. Yeah, and I think that that's

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hopefully an interest we can like cross pollinated. But we'll see,

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you know, if this is your worst performing episode.

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Of all time, it will be.

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That's a good data point.

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It's it's good to know, but it's probably not gonna

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be the case at all. Okay, So I know you

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were just at Fringe Festival, which is I think I

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told you on my bucket list of things to do.

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I love Edinburgh and I've been to the to the

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what is it just for laughs in Montreal. I've yes

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been to that one. And that's fun. That's a lot

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of fun. Just you can just sort of walk around

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from show to show practically.

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Fringe is Fringe is interesting because I I didn't I

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didn't have an intense viewing schedule, like I went there

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for specific like work things. Yeah, some people see nine

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shows a day.

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Oh my lord.

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I talked to people who were like, oh yeah, I

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saw eight shows yesterday. I'm seeing nine shows Today's amazing.

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It is. There are like over three thousand individual shows,

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not over three thousand individual performances, three thousand like different shows.

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Oh my god, you can see. It is insane, absolutely

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insane in a good way, I think.

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Yeah. I mean I when I was there, we saw

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a stand up show, kind of a very long stand

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up show in one of the venues, and it was

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you know, it was people who routinely perform during Fringe,

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because why wouldn't they write, They'd live there, so like

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they have the ability to put on, you know, whatever

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comedy they want to at any.

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Time they want to, I assume.

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But you were there specifically to see or to be

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with a particular show.

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Yeah, that's correct. I was not there the whole time.

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I was there the last the final week, and the

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final week is the easiest time if you're producing. And

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I was producing a show, and I fortunately had a

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team that went over there because I was closing down

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a different show we had here in New York. Yeah,

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and so they went over and started. And the first

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part of Fringe is really tough because if you're going

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for the first time, you have to fight to stand out.

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So you're like handing out flyers, You're trying to get

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butts in seats, You're convincing people to come see your show.

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And if you're a performer, you might have like one

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hundred person venue and you might be performing to ten

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people your first few shows, because like just word of

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mouth really matters. So by the time I got there,

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the show was already selling out. It was already by

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all accounts, a hit. It was one of the best

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reviewed shows of Fringe. And people were coming up to

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me and they're like, oh my god, you're a producer

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for the show. Congratulations, And I'm like, yep, thank you,

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I thank thank you.

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I've been here working my ass off in spirit.

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Yes I didn't. I didn't hand out a single flyer

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the entire time I was there. But it's a testament too.

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It's a show that we helped develop here in New York,

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and so, you know, the show we knew was great,

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and it was just convincing enough people to come see

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it and then post about it and it be a

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word of mouth thing to where by the last week

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people are like trying to you know, trying to buy

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tickets off people in line. Like that's how the regular

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it was. So yeah, word to the wise, if you're

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producing it Fringe, just make sure it's a hit before

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you show up. Yeah, exactly, way to do it, great time.

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Yeah, and just be careful not to break your arm

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patting yourself on the back when yeah, when all the

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accolades roll in, right exactly. So producing stuff's easy, you

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you know, it's I know you've produced several shows in

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sort of different levels of participation in in in producing,

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like what what does that actually look like on a

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practical level.

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The best thing, thank you for asking, Jim. The best

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thing I could like in it too, is like every

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show is a little startup, and startups are always different, right,

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Like the goal with some startups in theatrical production is

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that you grow it, and you go it and you

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grow it and then it goes to Broadway, right, right,

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And that's kind of like your That's like the closest

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thing to an IPO, right for like a company, it's

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like this big it's like your your your public offering,

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and sometimes public offerings go really well and you have

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a hit, and sometimes public offerings don't go well, and

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it depends on Because producing, you can get involved with

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the different stages. So I've been involved with some lovely

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Broadway shows that have done quite well. And I come

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on like while the show is already you know, part

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way through the show's life cycle, and I might be

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responsible for some of the marketing, or I might be

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responsible for part of the capitol.

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Race that's needed.

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You're pretty much always responsible for part of the capital race.

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Yeah, that's how you get to do the other stuff, right,

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So how you becoming the conversation table exactly.

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Oftentimes if you're co producing on Broadway, you're just raising money.

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You're just responsible for the budget for something like this.

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This is a show, the show we took to French

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as a show called Whole. It's a musical, and the

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premise is, and it's performed entirely by the two people

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who wrote it. They perform every role, and they play

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all the instruments, some of which they found in the trash.

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It's great.

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And then the premise is that there's a cult in

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Nebraska that believes they have to wear butt plugs at

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all time or else God will suck them up and

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burn them on the surface of the sun. And it

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turns out that basically comes true. So the only people

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left on earth are this cult and anyone else who

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happened to be wearing a butt plug. And then like

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that's like the start of the plot, and then like

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the plot goes from there. It is brilliant and genius

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and it's like not actually what people think it is.

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It's like not really gross, it's it's it is a

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bit versical but it's also like got a lot of

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heart and it's a coming of age story, and you

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watch the audience and like by the end, people are

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crying a because they're laughing, but also B because it's

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like really touching and sweet and there's a lot of

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Catharsis in it, and people are like, Oh my god,

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I like I really connected with the characters, which is

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insane to say about a butt plug musical, but that's

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one where I got involved as a producer from the

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earliest stages. So my one of my production partners and

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I were the lead producers, so we were like helping

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to develop that from you know, before it had ever

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been performed, like truly been performed. They'd had like a

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like a they'd performed for some friends, but like the

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first like ticketed, paid performance, we were you know, we

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were like, we think this has commercial potential. We're going

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to try and like actually help develop it. So getting

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them rehearsal spaces, working with the director, like giving suggestions

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with the creative and then gradually performing it at slightly

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bigger and bigger venues in New York City until I

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was like, oh, we can take this to fringe and

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then raising the money so that they could actually go

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to fringe, because you have to pay these people right

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as deservedly, so you know they deserve it, finding them

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a place to stay, like marketing it, figuring out how

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you produce a show overseas, and then trying to gradually

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build and build and build. So we were kind of

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involved from the very beginning and have been basically the

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executives driving the ship. And as the show gets bigger,

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we may have to bring on additional producers to bring

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on more capital or more connections or just expand the team.

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But it's amazing. Yeah, it's by a duo called American

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Sing Song.

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Okay as.

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They're American sing Song on Instagram. They're fantastic Jake and Naudia.

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I think they're absolutely brilliant geniuses. They're hilarious, they're kind,

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they're smart, and that's like just a rare trifecta that

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you get, yeah, in in people who are just very

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and people that you get to work with, Like in life,

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how often do you get to work with people who

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are all those things?

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Right?

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Not often enough?

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Not often? And the director's awesome, his name's RJ. So

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a real dream to produce something that like people looked

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at us like we were crazy a year ago when

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we were like, oh, we're going to probably produce this

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butt plug musical.

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People are like to tell them it's like Wally but

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but but sort of but.

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But honestly, there's actually a lot of there are more

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Wally comparisons. If you've seen the show. I know you haven't,

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ha like, but if you see the show, you're like, wait,

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they are actually a lot of Wally Can Garrisons here.

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So we're trying to figure it. We're likely going to

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take the show to London this fall and or perform

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it at different venues in New York this fall. So

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all that to say, theater production is like starting a

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company and you have to figure out how big you

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want your company to be, right, Like, do you want

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your company to grow and be this big thing that's

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like at the highest tier, which is like Broadway or

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the West End, or you know, is it a company

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that maybe it's like a lifestyle business, right, Maybe you're

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not trying to create this big behemoth, right, Maybe you

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think that it will do better if it does not

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go to a thousand seat venue, right, So the top

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I think one of the toughest parts about theater is

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if you have something that's successful, figuring out what is

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the top level it can be successful at. Because sometimes

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you will have a hit off Broadway or off off

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Broadway or in a different market and you take it

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to Broadway which costs millions and millions of dollars and

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it flops.

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Yeah.

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Right, And I think a lot of this is figuring

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out like what is the right audience and for what

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you're producing.

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I mean that's true of any any startup of any kind.

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It's basically you just have no idea. You go on

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your gut and you have no no idea. I know

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you've talked in the in the past offline about that

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that magical metric of of you know, what people are,

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what people spend.

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Per ticket.

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Atp average ticket price.

246
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Yeah, yeah, and that's like that that could be difficult

247
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to estimate. I would imagine it is.

248
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I mean, it depends on the venue, It depends on

249
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how expensive things are, like the whole whole. We're really

250
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lucky because musicals tend to be really expensive because music

251
00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:51.759
is like plays tend to be cheaper. You add music

252
00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:55.039
and it tends to be more expensive. All the music

253
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is performed by these two brilliant people who are playing

254
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instruments while they're acting like it's it's really a rare thing.

255
00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:05.679
So it's ultimately, you know, you don't have to pay

256
00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:08.279
for at least in this version, we're not paying for

257
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a full band or a full orchestra. Right, it's the

258
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two of them. Now, that's that's rare, and that's also

259
00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:19.759
part of the charm. So you know, the question for

260
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us becomes, well, is there a version of this where

261
00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:25.559
it's like a much bigger team on stage? I don't know, right,

262
00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:28.559
these are these are all things we questions we have

263
00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:33.279
to answer, but I kind of completely forgot what the

264
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question was.

265
00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:37.480
I think you've you've you've pretty much said I. It's

266
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just how you figure out like what that what that

267
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average ticket price is going to be? Like what what?

268
00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:44.320
What are people going to be willing to pay for it?

269
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.960
At which level of uh of of venue?

270
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I guess right, thank you, thank you for guiding me back.

271
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You can lead a horse to water and he'll just

272
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walk away. Multiple times.

273
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I've been doing this in a minute.

274
00:13:57.240 --> 00:13:59.840
So it's it's you have a little experience you've recorded

275
00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:03.440
or too. Average ticket price is kind of everything, because

276
00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:09.960
like I've been involved with shows that sold really well,

277
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sold most of their tickets, but people weren't willing to

278
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pay a lot per ticket and the show did not

279
00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:19.320
do that well financially. And then I've been involved with

280
00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.600
shows in much smaller theaters so we didn't have to

281
00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:25.600
sell that many tickets, but people were willing to pay

282
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a lot of money per ticket and the show did

283
00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:29.679
really well. So it's not just about like are you

284
00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:34.519
filling up your house? It's how are you monetizing every

285
00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:38.240
person who's coming through the door. Yeah, right, because you

286
00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:40.320
can have a Broadway house that might be fifteen hundred

287
00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:42.360
seats and if you fill it up, that's great, But

288
00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:45.159
if people are only paying forty bucks per ticket, you're

289
00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:48.679
going to be losing money. Right. But if you know,

290
00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:51.120
if you have a much smaller theater and people are

291
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:54.320
paying two hundred bucks per ticket, you're probably going to

292
00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:55.840
be doing pretty well and your costs are going to

293
00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.759
be a lot lower. So it's a metric that is

294
00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:02.720
like it's a popularity contest, but it's also like what

295
00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:05.320
are people willing to do and where is that price.

296
00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:09.080
Threshold you Obviously I haven't said it so far, but

297
00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:11.320
people who know who you are know that you were

298
00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:16.159
a very successful founding CEO of Barbend dot com and

299
00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.679
transitioned away from that when when the company was sold

300
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:27.639
and moved into this what You obviously have a pretty

301
00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:34.919
good gut for figuring out what's going to work. Do

302
00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:40.559
you ever push forward when everything else seems to say

303
00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:43.360
that that there's success on the horizon your gut is

304
00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:44.000
a little.

305
00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:49.240
I mean, I mean I've produced some things over the

306
00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:52.159
last couple of years that did not do well, so

307
00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:56.639
my gut is not always right. Yeah, I have Also,

308
00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.639
I think the best example is like I, I have

309
00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:05.519
committed to things and believed in things that I should

310
00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:08.480
have gone full bore into. It's easier to have regrets

311
00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:10.200
for the things that you you're like, wow, I do

312
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:12.360
like I went a little bit into this, but I

313
00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:15.320
should have just like put all the chips in. An

314
00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:17.759
example is a show that I co produced on Broadway

315
00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:22.200
called Oh Mary, which is a wildly successful show yeah

316
00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:26.600
Broadway by any metric, by literally any metric like awards,

317
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:30.279
won reviews, given, money made, and I co produced it,

318
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:32.279
so I believed in the show, and I actually also invested,

319
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:34.039
so I also put some of my own money into it,

320
00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:36.960
and in addition to just to raising money from others.

321
00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:42.600
And I look back on that and I'm like, I

322
00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:46.480
should have put all my money into that. I didn't

323
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:48.279
put it like every cent I had into that, because

324
00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.279
that has been a great, a great hit. But at

325
00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:54.960
the same time, it was also a non traditional play.

326
00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:56.960
It was also very much a non traditional show to

327
00:16:56.960 --> 00:16:59.919
take to Broadway, and it was considered I think a

328
00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:04.039
lot of people would have considered it very risky. At

329
00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:06.640
the same time, we knew, like the first week it opened,

330
00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:07.880
that this was going to be a hint that was

331
00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.519
like audiences just responded so, well, it's tough. It's no

332
00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:13.119
one gets it right one hundred percent of the time.

333
00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:17.119
I don't think there's a single career producer who has

334
00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:21.519
like really taken swings and really like believed in creative

335
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:23.759
that hasn't gotten it wrong a time or two.

336
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:28.359
Yeah, I would say with oh, Mary, like just from

337
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.759
the outside, having talked to you about it before it

338
00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:32.799
before it came to fruition.

339
00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:33.359
That.

340
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:37.720
I thought it was a real gamble and I thought

341
00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.759
it would it. I thought it had a pretty good

342
00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:43.640
chance of success, but it also there was a real

343
00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:46.039
chance that people just would not get it. And then

344
00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:48.880
once I saw it, oh no, I understand why people

345
00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:51.559
get it. It works on a lot of different levels.

346
00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.359
And probably the biggest surprise of the whole thing to.

347
00:17:56.359 --> 00:17:59.119
Me was that Cole A.

348
00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:03.680
Skola, who wrote it and was the original Mary Todd Lincoln,

349
00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:07.720
people are not gonna know. This is like a purely

350
00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:13.119
fictional story about Mary Todd Lincoln being an alcoholic and

351
00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:19.480
an absolute brat and someone completely disengaged from everything that's

352
00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:22.200
going on in the White House and wants to be

353
00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:23.000
a cabaret star.

354
00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:25.839
And I.

355
00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:32.640
That character is so fully formed that you are not

356
00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:37.759
ever distracted by the fact that that Cole's pronouns are

357
00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.480
they them? You never get that at all. And you've

358
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:45.920
had you've had men and women play that character since

359
00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:49.200
since Cole's you know, Cole left for a while, came

360
00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:52.960
back pre Tony's, and then is off.

361
00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:53.599
Now I just saw that.

362
00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:58.599
Jane Krakowski is coming on as a Mary, and I realized.

363
00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:00.359
This is this is a Chicago.

364
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:04.599
With some of the same cast members.

365
00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.440
Actually, yeah, way, it's a Chicago for people who don't know.

366
00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:10.720
Chicago has been running on Broadway forever, and the way

367
00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:15.480
they refresh it is by bringing in you know, name talent,

368
00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:20.559
people with broad appeal from TV movies or whatever to

369
00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:23.960
come in and play key roles, and it just keeps

370
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:28.160
it rolling and rolling and rolling. I imagine that o'mary

371
00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:29.160
could run forever.

372
00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:32.839
I hope it does. I think that I give a

373
00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:35.839
lot of credit to the lead producers who originally put

374
00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:37.599
the package it and put it together and brought other

375
00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:43.559
producers like myself on because they see casting potential here.

376
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:45.440
It's a little I will say the thing, I think

377
00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:48.079
Chicago's a great comparison. I think the thing that it

378
00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:51.279
does maybe better than It's a different thing. I don't

379
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:52.799
want to compare. I don't want to say better than Chicago,

380
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:54.680
because Chicago's doing a very different thing and that's not

381
00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:59.000
fair to necessarily compare. But this character is so outlandish,

382
00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:02.440
and this performance is so can be so dialed up

383
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.000
to eleven out of ten or twelve out of ten.

384
00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:08.880
It's almost a challenge to cast members to say, like

385
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:10.920
can you bring it?

386
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:11.759
Yeah?

387
00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:15.039
Like what what can you like? What? What is your

388
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:17.240
what is your what are you bringing here? Because you

389
00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:19.880
can do this completely different Everyone who performs this role

390
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:24.400
does it differently. What is your what is your twelve

391
00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:27.799
out of ten, and it's a very demanding role. But

392
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:29.799
I think it's a if I were an actor of

393
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:32.400
that caliber, I would I would be tempted because it's

394
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.359
almost a challenge, right, It's like what is.

395
00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:37.640
My most Yeah, it's one of those things you would

396
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.680
go into it and you would you would shoot for

397
00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:42.960
the for the moan, and you would wait for somebody

398
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:44.119
to tell you you've gone too far.

399
00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:45.039
Right.

400
00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:49.039
And the director Sam Pinkleton, who is phenomenal and I've

401
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:53.000
gotten to know you know decently well through this process.

402
00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:57.519
I I don't know if Sam would ever rain someone

403
00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:01.440
in from their twelve, but Sam would would channel that.

404
00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:03.599
Exam would say like, this is how we're going to

405
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:06.880
channel that. What's not like dim your light, let's just

406
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:12.640
focus it this way. So, yeah, it's been, that's been.

407
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:16.160
That's what I listen that, that's that's If they could

408
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.400
all be like that, this would be a very different conversation.

409
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:21.039
Yeah, you probably would have time to talk to me.

410
00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:24.039
I just yeah, I'd be like we'd be on a

411
00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:28.079
we'd be on a very large boat, a very very

412
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:32.119
large boat. I think it's just an example of one

413
00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:36.359
thing I like about entertainment. Is that it is subjective

414
00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:43.519
and it is impossible to predict with one accuracy. I

415
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:47.880
I liken O Mary to the cult horror film, and

416
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:51.599
I think that's that's an imperfect that's an imperfect comparison.

417
00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:55.240
But like every year, every other year, there's a horror

418
00:21:55.240 --> 00:22:00.240
film that just gets a cult following, right, and you're like,

419
00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:05.000
how did that happen? Or I couldn't have predicted that necessarily,

420
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.359
Or there's like a thriller and oh Mary became that

421
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:11.599
on stage, like the like the movie Megan, which now

422
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:14.440
has a sequel, Megan was actually really big and very

423
00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:15.880
popular in the queer community.

424
00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:18.640
Uh huh, which oh Mary has to be right.

425
00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:21.839
Which oh Mary Omary definitely, But Omry's like transcendent. Omary's

426
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:26.000
popular in every The variety of people we get in

427
00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:28.640
to see the show is phenomenal, Right, It's just like

428
00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.880
everyone's trying to figure out, like it's very interesting to see,

429
00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:35.440
like how who told whom what that got them in

430
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:36.680
the in this theater?

431
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:39.359
Yeah, Actually back up and say, it's not when I

432
00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:40.920
saw it that I was pretty sure it was going

433
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:44.400
to be a hit. It was when my friend Nick Scopoletti,

434
00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:48.680
who was friends with Lisa Lampinelli, who saw it off Broadway,

435
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:52.839
saw that it was coming to Broadway, and she told him, look,

436
00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:55.279
we're going to see this show. I'm going to get

437
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:57.839
the tickets. Ven Momy, We're going you have to see.

438
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:00.839
It's the funniest thing I've ever seen. And somebody, you know,

439
00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:04.319
with with as many years of experience and comedy as

440
00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:07.880
Lisa and lamp Binelle says that then it works. It's

441
00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.240
going to have to work, right, Just the only open

442
00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:13.119
question being how many people is it going.

443
00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:13.480
To work for?

444
00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:18.000
Yeah? And that's a I think that is ultimately the

445
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:22.319
question for any anyone who tries to build a product, right,

446
00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:24.720
And like a theater show, a play, a musical, it's

447
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:27.839
a product if you put a lot of work into something,

448
00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:31.920
and if you're a creative or producer and you're building

449
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:34.279
it even just for yourself, like it's going to have

450
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:37.200
an audience, the question is how big is that audience

451
00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:38.920
and how much are you committing and how big do

452
00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:40.480
you need that audience to be for it to be

453
00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:41.079
a success.

454
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:42.400
Yeah?

455
00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:44.559
Right, So if you have if you have a podcast

456
00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:49.319
that is you and a good buddy, and the overhead

457
00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:52.079
is relatively low and it's maybe not necessarily your full

458
00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:56.160
time job. And you find, you know, a thousand listeners

459
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:00.759
an episode for a lot of people, that's awesome. Yeah,

460
00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:05.319
that's great, right, like amazing. But if you're a major

461
00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:08.799
media studio, in a major podcasting studio, and you're hiring

462
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:11.680
hosts and you're paying people, and you're you have all

463
00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:13.839
these this overhead and it costs twenty thousand dollars to

464
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:20.839
produce an episode and you have a thousand listeners total, yeah,

465
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:23.960
it's a little bit less of a success by that metric, right.

466
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:28.119
So I think that it's what is the size of

467
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:32.319
the audience that you need relative to the effort and

468
00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:33.480
your goals.

469
00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:36.000
It's like a break even analysis really in a lot

470
00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:38.759
of ways. Yeah, just like a you know, an audience,

471
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:40.680
what's my audience size?

472
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.599
What can I hope to capture.

473
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:48.000
In that regard? I have seen live seen three of

474
00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:51.480
the shows that you produced, and then saw the Good

475
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:55.319
Night and good Luck live broadcast, which was amazing.

476
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:59.920
Also, what's your favorite thing that you've worked on?

477
00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:04.039
I wish I could take any credit for the creative

478
00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:05.559
behind good Night and good Luck, Just to just to

479
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:07.759
be clear, I don't want to misrepresent. Yeah, I could

480
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:10.400
take zero credit for the creative work on that. I

481
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:16.279
think it was a really brilliant collaboration between George Grant

482
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:19.359
and the director David Cromer, who I gotta spend some

483
00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:22.599
time with recently and who just I think is absolutely brilliant.

484
00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:24.519
If you're ever in New York and David Cromer is

485
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:28.680
directing a piece of theater, like go see it. It's

486
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:35.720
my advice, my favorite thing. It might be whole. It

487
00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:38.039
might be this thing we do because because we don't

488
00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:39.960
know where it's gonna go yet, Like we have thoughts

489
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:42.519
and we have plans, and we don't know, we don't

490
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:44.400
know ultimately where.

491
00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:46.039
It's ripe with promise.

492
00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:50.960
Still it's ripe with promise. It's it's different, and it's

493
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:53.400
the sort of thing that like we saw, we like

494
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:56.799
picked it out early and we're like, we're gonna, We're gonna,

495
00:25:56.920 --> 00:25:58.960
we want to produce that. Like I remember the meeting

496
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:01.279
we had with the creative we took them out for

497
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:04.359
coffee and at the end I remember saying, like, cool,

498
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.160
we really want to produce whole, Like connect us with

499
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:08.920
your if you're if you're if you're amenable to that,

500
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:10.559
if that's something you'd like to explore connect us with

501
00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:13.359
your reps and like we'll negotiate that, but we'd really

502
00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:15.200
like to produce it. And they were just like.

503
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:21.160
Huh what she's being what.

504
00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:22.200
What like, Oh, we'd like to produce hold. They're like,

505
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:26.279
we thought you We did not Like, that's not where

506
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:28.039
we necessarily thought this was gonna We thought you were

507
00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:29.799
being nice and grabbing us coffee, but like we didn't

508
00:26:29.799 --> 00:26:32.119
really necessarily think this conversation was going to end with

509
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:33.920
like an offer to and they were thrilled yeah, and

510
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:35.680
then like they wanted to go to fringe. We were like, cool,

511
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:37.440
we can, we can make that happen. And they're like,51200:26:37.799 --> 00:26:41.599



oh wait really, oh okay cool, And it's this this51300:26:41.680 --> 00:26:45.200



is this like nice intersection of what we want to51400:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.480



do with them and what they want for what they've built,51500:26:48.559 --> 00:26:50.440



and it's just it just feels really good. So we're51600:26:50.519 --> 00:26:52.200



kind of in this honeymoon stage right now where we51700:26:52.240 --> 00:26:54.440



just had a great run and we're trying to see51800:26:54.480 --> 00:26:57.000



like where it can go next, and there's all this51900:26:57.119 --> 00:27:00.119



promise and possibility, and it feels like a kid who52000:27:00.160 --> 00:27:02.599



just graduated high school and did really well and has52100:27:02.640 --> 00:27:05.480



a lot of college offers and gets to like pick52200:27:05.519 --> 00:27:11.599



and choose. So yeah, it's this, it's this fun in52300:27:11.640 --> 00:27:14.880



between stage right now. And also it's just so different.52400:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.200



It's so radically different than anything else I've worked on,52500:27:17.720 --> 00:27:19.559



and getting to work on it soup to nuts and52600:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.920



like every little detail, right, like getting to talk to52700:27:23.039 --> 00:27:26.119



the director about like ooh, this costume switch, we should52800:27:26.160 --> 00:27:28.319



do it here, we should do it this way, or like,52900:27:28.799 --> 00:27:32.359



you know, maybe this dance move they do because there's53000:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.000



like a little bit there's movement in it. It should53100:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.240



be like maybe a little different here, talking like the53200:27:37.279 --> 00:27:41.200



pre show playlist, the number of conversations we've had as53300:27:41.200 --> 00:27:43.200



a team about the pre show play I get that,53400:27:44.839 --> 00:27:47.559



and like getting and and that just makes it special,53500:27:47.640 --> 00:27:51.279



right because like if I'm brought onto something while like53600:27:51.599 --> 00:27:56.160



on its way to Broadway, I'm not usually helping out53700:27:56.200 --> 00:27:59.519



with the pre show playlist. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, right,53800:27:59.640 --> 00:28:01.960



But like at that point, the team's pretty big. There53900:28:01.960 --> 00:28:04.079



are like people for that, But at this point, I'm like, cool,54000:28:04.119 --> 00:28:05.240



here's what I think we should do.54100:28:05.400 --> 00:28:09.039



Yeah, people don't get how important that is. I mean there,54200:28:09.079 --> 00:28:11.720



I've seen several shows in the last few years that54300:28:11.920 --> 00:28:17.039



the pre show even had actors on stage, like I54400:28:17.079 --> 00:28:20.880



saw We saw Red in the West End a few54500:28:20.920 --> 00:28:24.319



years ago with Alfred Molina and he comes out on54600:28:24.400 --> 00:28:27.200



stage and sits in a chair essentially with his sort54700:28:27.240 --> 00:28:30.000



of sort of three quarter back, like you know, he's54800:28:30.200 --> 00:28:32.400



he's not facing the audience at all. You can see54900:28:32.440 --> 00:28:35.039



him in a little bit in profile if you're you know,55000:28:35.160 --> 00:28:37.960



on the right hand side of the house and.55100:28:37.960 --> 00:28:41.480



Smokes cigarettes for fifteen twenty.55200:28:41.279 --> 00:28:44.920



Minutes before the show starts, and it really sets the55300:28:44.960 --> 00:28:48.640



attitude of that character before before.55400:28:48.359 --> 00:28:50.200



The first line is ever spoken.55500:28:50.640 --> 00:28:53.880



And I imagine that the pre show music, well I've55600:28:53.920 --> 00:28:57.240



certainly seen that and experienced that in different with different shows.55700:28:58.279 --> 00:29:00.519



It does a lot to set the tone, the mood55800:29:00.599 --> 00:29:04.519



and the expectation and the audience like this is you know,55900:29:04.839 --> 00:29:06.480



open your mind to what you're going to see.56000:29:08.039 --> 00:29:13.079



It just going back to Oh Mary, the O Mary56100:29:13.119 --> 00:29:18.119



pre show music is maybe the best thing on Broadway56200:29:18.279 --> 00:29:20.839



right now. Like the pre show playlist what you can56300:29:20.880 --> 00:29:23.359



find on Spotify. Oh really it's great, Yeah, you can56400:29:23.400 --> 00:29:25.319



find it. The O Mary pre show playlist is just56500:29:25.319 --> 00:29:27.640



maybe the best and it just sets the tones so well.56600:29:28.240 --> 00:29:30.319



And like now, when when I go to see the56700:29:30.319 --> 00:29:32.480



show or when when like I take people to the56800:29:32.480 --> 00:29:33.839



show who've seen it before and they want to see56900:29:33.839 --> 00:29:35.519



a new cast member, they want to see it again.57000:29:36.079 --> 00:29:38.400



They're like, cool, let's make sure we get there early57100:29:39.200 --> 00:29:43.720



so that we can get the full pre show playlist.57200:29:43.799 --> 00:29:47.160



Yeah, yeah, right, that makes sense.57300:29:51.000 --> 00:29:54.359



In taking a show like that to Fringe. Did you57400:29:54.519 --> 00:29:58.400



have any insight given to you about like what the57500:29:58.480 --> 00:30:02.839



audience expectations might be, because like, humor in Scotland is different,57600:30:02.880 --> 00:30:04.359



having seen stand up there.57700:30:05.599 --> 00:30:07.640



It totally. I don't want to give too much away57800:30:08.039 --> 00:30:10.759



and I don't want to be in scendiaria on this podcast,57900:30:10.759 --> 00:30:13.759



but I have I have an example. It's something we58000:30:13.799 --> 00:30:15.480



had flagged. So we did it in New York a58100:30:15.480 --> 00:30:17.960



few times, and New York audiences are very different, right, yeah,58200:30:18.000 --> 00:30:20.839



And the Manhattan audience we did in Manhattan different audience58300:30:20.880 --> 00:30:23.279



than Brooklyn. We did it in Brooklyn, right, we did58400:30:23.279 --> 00:30:27.359



it at a queer performance venue, right, and then we58500:30:27.359 --> 00:30:29.640



did it at a regular like music performance venue, like,58600:30:29.720 --> 00:30:32.200



very different audiences each time. And that's nice because you58700:30:32.200 --> 00:30:34.480



get to see, like, Okay, what are the jokes that58800:30:34.559 --> 00:30:37.359



always hit right? What are the what are the things58900:30:37.359 --> 00:30:38.839



that don't always hit and you're able to kind of59000:30:38.839 --> 00:30:42.839



cross reference. It's it's it's good. It's good research. In Scotland,59100:30:42.880 --> 00:30:45.240



we and we thought this might happen. There were certain59200:30:46.440 --> 00:30:48.519



I mean, I'll just be straight up with it. It's59300:30:48.519 --> 00:30:51.000



totally fine. Like in New York. This is New York.59400:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.119



Jewish humor is a big part of the culture here. Yeah, right,59500:30:56.319 --> 00:30:58.799



Like the show is one of one of the creatives59600:30:58.799 --> 00:31:03.400



and performers is Jewish, and like that is a big59700:31:03.440 --> 00:31:06.200



part of oftentimes a big part of their humor, not59800:31:06.200 --> 00:31:09.640



and everything there, right, but like it's it's an integral59900:31:09.680 --> 00:31:11.759



part of the New York theater experience if you're around60000:31:11.799 --> 00:31:14.160



the comedy scene for long enough, Right, it's just like60100:31:14.279 --> 00:31:20.759



culturally such a component of humor here. And those jokes60200:31:20.920 --> 00:31:25.880



don't hit as well. It's not they just they just60300:31:25.960 --> 00:31:29.519



they just don't. It's just not it's just a very60400:31:29.559 --> 00:31:32.880



different you know, it's a very different humor. And it60500:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.480



doesn't it didn't like fundamentally change the show. It was60600:31:35.559 --> 00:31:38.160



just like night after night, you could be like that60700:31:38.200 --> 00:31:42.400



gets a really great response in Brooklyn and it gets60800:31:42.400 --> 00:31:49.440



a much more tepid response in Edinburgh. Yeah, to be fair,60900:31:49.519 --> 00:31:52.319



the audiences at the French festival are very diverse. You61000:31:52.400 --> 00:31:54.480



get a lot of people coming from New York and61100:31:54.519 --> 00:31:57.200



from the US and from all over continental Europe everywhere,61200:31:58.039 --> 00:32:03.359



so that helps. But you know, it's yeah, it was61300:32:03.400 --> 00:32:06.519



just very it's very interesting, like oh, okay, that's part61400:32:06.599 --> 00:32:09.480



that's not really like, yeah, it wasn't great over here.61500:32:09.559 --> 00:32:11.799



As long as there are enough other parts that hit61600:32:12.559 --> 00:32:16.920



then you're okay, right, I mean, yeah, yeah. I think61700:32:16.960 --> 00:32:19.519



it's funny that you would talk about the about Jewish61800:32:19.599 --> 00:32:22.839



humor in New York and the like early television, fifties,61900:32:22.880 --> 00:32:26.240



sixties television had a lot of Jewish humor, and I62000:32:26.279 --> 00:32:30.880



think that was sort of my first experience with because62100:32:31.119 --> 00:32:33.119



I grew up in a place that was very diverse62200:32:33.160 --> 00:32:35.319



except that there were not a lot of Jews. And62300:32:35.400 --> 00:32:41.440



so my understanding of the culture came from watching TV62400:32:42.359 --> 00:32:45.200



and and that you know, those shows were produced, a62500:32:45.200 --> 00:32:46.759



lot of them in New York, some of them in62600:32:47.160 --> 00:32:50.960



la and uh and yeah, the elements is there.62700:32:51.680 --> 00:32:55.200



It's it's you know, we had I had to remind myself.62800:32:55.240 --> 00:32:57.920



I remember it's like the second show, the second whole62900:32:57.960 --> 00:32:59.720



performance I saw at Fringe after I kind of got63000:32:59.720 --> 00:33:01.920



over my jet lag, I part way through it is63100:33:02.039 --> 00:33:04.519



just like, oh not everyone here watches Curby your enthusiasm63200:33:06.680 --> 00:33:11.319



just like you know, like it's just it's that that63300:33:11.319 --> 00:33:16.160



that Larry David style of humor that was so integral63400:33:16.160 --> 00:33:19.079



and like how I grew up watching Seinfeld and then63500:33:19.839 --> 00:33:23.839



Larry David's had a chokehold on the TV I've consumed63600:33:23.920 --> 00:33:24.759



for most.63700:33:24.480 --> 00:33:25.440



Of my life. Yeah.63800:33:26.039 --> 00:33:29.839



Right, there have been more years I've been consuming new63900:33:29.839 --> 00:33:32.119



episodes or reruns of a Larry David show than years64000:33:32.119 --> 00:33:36.160



I haven't been. And so yeah, just didn't that's that64100:33:36.400 --> 00:33:37.960



style just doesn't translate.64200:33:37.880 --> 00:33:38.759



As much as we're there.64300:33:39.200 --> 00:33:44.079



Yeah, I would believe that well, because it's it's irrational64400:33:45.079 --> 00:33:45.640



in a lot.64500:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.920



Of ways, it's contextual.64600:33:48.119 --> 00:33:49.680



Yeah, okay, yeah, I.64700:33:49.599 --> 00:33:51.559



Think I think it's I think it's I think it's64800:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.799



very contextual, and I think that it gives me a64900:33:54.839 --> 00:33:57.720



lot of it. It's just another thing I love about65000:33:57.720 --> 00:33:59.920



New York, right, Like that's just I'm not I'm not doing.65100:34:00.359 --> 00:34:03.880



My name's David, and I have curly hair and and65200:34:03.960 --> 00:34:05.759



like a lot of people think I'm half Chinese half65300:34:05.839 --> 00:34:08.360



Jewish in New York, which I will take, yeah, but65400:34:08.480 --> 00:34:12.079



take it like I'm sure great, Thank you Like, that's65500:34:12.639 --> 00:34:14.800



that's like half the city that I'm just fitting in65600:34:14.840 --> 00:34:19.239



with right there. Not really, but people a lot of65700:34:19.280 --> 00:34:21.480



people pre sing that I'm not Jewish, but I actually65800:34:21.519 --> 00:34:23.960



feel a lot of New York City pride that like ooh,65900:34:24.119 --> 00:34:28.440



I kind of like I'm aware of that humor. Right,66000:34:28.599 --> 00:34:30.159



It's not like what I grew up with my family,66100:34:30.159 --> 00:34:31.960



but like I'm aware of it and it makes it66200:34:32.119 --> 00:34:34.679



contextual sense to me, and it's just like yes, New66300:34:34.760 --> 00:34:39.079



York City, you know, It's just it just makes me66400:34:39.199 --> 00:34:41.239



makes me well up with even more city pride.66500:34:41.239 --> 00:34:43.079



I love the city. That's great.66600:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.280



Let's just shift gears for just a second and go66700:34:46.559 --> 00:34:48.519



toward the spirit world.66800:34:49.000 --> 00:34:49.920



And I don't mean.66900:34:51.840 --> 00:34:54.320



I'm not talking about pop up stores at this time67000:34:54.360 --> 00:34:58.199



of year where you can buy your Halloween.67100:34:57.800 --> 00:35:00.480



Costumes, yeah, or or like.67200:35:01.760 --> 00:35:02.880



Is there any of those things? Yeah.67300:35:02.920 --> 00:35:07.360



I actually recently realized or read that that Harry Houdini67400:35:07.480 --> 00:35:10.760



was like a big seance debunker, Like he literally had67500:35:10.760 --> 00:35:13.679



somebody working for him would go out and like pretend67600:35:13.800 --> 00:35:16.719



to be someone who needed to talk to their husband67700:35:16.760 --> 00:35:19.280



or father or brother whatever who'd passed on, and and67800:35:19.400 --> 00:35:26.159



would like you know, challenge the medium to display their talents,67900:35:26.159 --> 00:35:28.760



and of course none of them ever panned as as68000:35:28.800 --> 00:35:29.719



being real.68100:35:30.679 --> 00:35:36.079



There's a cool history of illusionists and magicians who are68200:35:36.639 --> 00:35:39.480



who deep like to debunk the occult, like Ricky j68300:35:39.880 --> 00:35:42.559



is a more recent version of him, who I believe68400:35:42.599 --> 00:35:46.400



recently passed somewhat recently passed away. So like, these are68500:35:46.440 --> 00:35:49.760



some of the most prominent magicians and illusionists. But they68600:35:49.800 --> 00:35:54.400



love proving that, like magic isn't real. Yeah right, They're68700:35:54.440 --> 00:35:56.760



like they're kind of like they're people of science in68800:35:56.800 --> 00:35:59.400



a sense, like they'll trick you, but they're like, no,68900:35:59.480 --> 00:36:01.760



this is not like magic, the occult isn't real.69000:36:02.000 --> 00:36:05.840



Like you know, there's Yeah, we're all just having a69100:36:05.840 --> 00:36:08.639



good time here. We're also having good times. As Ed69200:36:08.679 --> 00:36:11.159



Cone used to say when he would judge it at69300:36:11.760 --> 00:36:22.519



untested multiplay meats, we're just having a good time here.69400:36:22.639 --> 00:36:23.599



We're having a good time.69500:36:25.039 --> 00:36:26.800



Uh you.69600:36:26.800 --> 00:36:31.039



So you write for.69700:36:29.320 --> 00:36:32.519



For vine Pair? Still, yes, I write for all sorts69800:36:32.559 --> 00:36:33.760



of food wine.69900:36:33.840 --> 00:36:38.559



I've seen food and wine Forbes, Drink Hacker, vine Pair.70000:36:40.000 --> 00:36:41.800



Might I might be writing for a couple more places70100:36:41.880 --> 00:36:47.320



later this year. But I also judge competitions, so I70200:36:47.400 --> 00:36:51.760



judge like like the world Whiskey's Awards I'm a judge70300:36:51.760 --> 00:36:57.679



for and I'm I just signed I just signed on70400:36:57.760 --> 00:36:58.920



to judge that again this year.70500:36:59.000 --> 00:37:00.239



So I am.70600:37:00.280 --> 00:37:03.159



I work in spirits. I'm a mostly a spirits writer70700:37:03.239 --> 00:37:07.039



and reviewer, sometimes a judge. Some people might say critic,70800:37:09.079 --> 00:37:11.559



and I occasionally speak at like industry of it. I70900:37:11.679 --> 00:37:14.000



speak at like panels, or I do like private tastings71000:37:14.000 --> 00:37:16.480



for people or for organizations. I do a lot of71100:37:16.480 --> 00:37:20.639



work with like nonprofits, so I do like tastings for71200:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.280



nonprofits and oftentimes those will like raise money and things71300:37:23.320 --> 00:37:23.559



like that.71400:37:23.639 --> 00:37:24.440



Yeah, that makes sense.71500:37:26.320 --> 00:37:29.119



I wish that you had a super fan who would71600:37:29.199 --> 00:37:33.159



make a giant, ever updating index of everything that you've71700:37:33.159 --> 00:37:38.480



ever said about any particular spirit, because you talk about71800:37:38.480 --> 00:37:41.199



things on Instagram sometimes that are not actually part of reviews.71900:37:41.280 --> 00:37:46.880



You're just you're you're discussing a particular brand or expression72000:37:46.960 --> 00:37:50.400



or whatever. And sometimes I think I'm standing in an72100:37:50.480 --> 00:37:53.119



aisle and I'm thinking what would David say about this?72200:37:53.239 --> 00:37:55.559



It's like I could text him, but that seems really72300:37:55.599 --> 00:37:58.039



annoying because I would be doing it, you know often,72400:37:58.719 --> 00:38:01.039



But like I just sometimes wish I knew what you72500:38:01.239 --> 00:38:04.280



thought about everything you've ever weighed in.72600:38:04.280 --> 00:38:09.679



On I guess it's I also wish I could remember72700:38:09.760 --> 00:38:12.679



everything I Sometimes sometimes I'll be like, wait a minute,72800:38:12.679 --> 00:38:14.400



I wrote a review on that. No, I have a72900:38:14.440 --> 00:38:18.320



pretty good memory for it. I wish I could apply73000:38:18.559 --> 00:38:20.119



because I love it. I like I it was a73100:38:20.119 --> 00:38:24.079



hobby that turned into another career. Yeah, if I could73200:38:24.159 --> 00:38:27.079



apply that same Like my brain is very good at73300:38:27.719 --> 00:38:30.840



at keeping spirits knowledge in my head and like, ooh,73400:38:30.880 --> 00:38:32.840



I tasted this years ago, but I can still remember it.73500:38:33.159 --> 00:38:35.679



If I could apply that same amount of brain power73600:38:35.679 --> 00:38:40.000



to anything else in life, it would be it would73700:38:40.079 --> 00:38:43.480



be great. But I cannot.73800:38:43.679 --> 00:38:45.719



You can I feel that. I feel that, you know.73900:38:46.199 --> 00:38:50.519



Just as an aside, but back to memory. I went74000:38:50.559 --> 00:38:55.079



to an informal high school reunion over the weekend and74100:38:55.599 --> 00:38:58.639



was talking to somebody that I haven't talked to probably74200:38:58.679 --> 00:39:02.920



since graduation. So Deck aids right, somebody that went K74300:39:03.119 --> 00:39:06.840



through twelve with, And he was talking about having a friend,74400:39:06.960 --> 00:39:09.239



much younger friend who was a powerlifter and who had74500:39:09.280 --> 00:39:11.519



just like moved and just like moved to Cleveland or something.74600:39:11.519 --> 00:39:12.760



And it's like cool. He's like, he tells me the74700:39:12.760 --> 00:39:15.320



guy's name and I don't know it, like you know,74800:39:15.679 --> 00:39:15.960



I might.74900:39:15.960 --> 00:39:19.400



I don't know all the powerlifters and in the world75000:39:19.719 --> 00:39:21.519



they especially if they haven't competed a level that I'm75100:39:21.559 --> 00:39:26.960



paying attention to, and even then these days, honestly, and so,75200:39:27.719 --> 00:39:29.000



you know, he told me the guy's name. I looked75300:39:29.199 --> 00:39:31.679



on Instagram. I didn't see anything that really you know,75400:39:31.880 --> 00:39:35.800



rung a bell at that point. And the next night75500:39:36.480 --> 00:39:42.559



my former classmate messaged me and said I talked to75600:39:42.639 --> 00:39:43.519



him and he.75700:39:43.559 --> 00:39:44.360



Knows who you are.75800:39:44.760 --> 00:39:47.800



He was aware of your your old podcast or whatever.75900:39:48.119 --> 00:39:50.639



And then he sends me this picture this guy has76000:39:50.719 --> 00:39:54.559



sent him that was take it with us at the76100:39:54.599 --> 00:39:58.000



twenty fifteen Arnold Like, okay, well, I'm not going to76200:39:58.079 --> 00:40:01.719



remember that. We no, no, how many pictures we took76300:40:01.760 --> 00:40:03.599



with people, I'm not going to remember that.76400:40:04.599 --> 00:40:11.280



Also, twenty fifteen in strength sports was a very special time.76500:40:11.360 --> 00:40:12.760



Yeah, it was a heady time.76600:40:13.400 --> 00:40:15.000



It was a hit. This is the best way of saying,76700:40:15.000 --> 00:40:15.679



I'm gonna steal that.76800:40:15.719 --> 00:40:16.639



It was a hill free.76900:40:16.679 --> 00:40:19.800



That was the year that inspired us to start barband.77000:40:20.079 --> 00:40:23.320



So we started barband in early twenty sixteen and twenty fifteen.77100:40:23.360 --> 00:40:25.639



There was just so much going on and it was77200:40:25.719 --> 00:40:29.480



all so exciting. Yeah, and kind of like but undefined77300:40:29.559 --> 00:40:32.719



still that we were like, we gotta we gotta start77400:40:32.760 --> 00:40:34.800



a website for this, we got to bid, we gotta77500:40:34.800 --> 00:40:39.760



build ESPN for this community. Yeah, and yeah, twenty fifteen77600:40:39.840 --> 00:40:40.880



was special.77700:40:41.400 --> 00:40:44.519



And now I was ten years ago. Dude, ten years.77800:40:44.840 --> 00:40:47.920



No, No, so it was so it was like it77900:40:48.079 --> 00:40:48.880



was like six and a half.78000:40:49.000 --> 00:40:51.239



So it's ten years ago. Yeah.78100:40:51.880 --> 00:40:53.880



Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, you know, the year78200:40:53.920 --> 00:40:56.639



two thousand was five years ago, was not the case78300:40:56.719 --> 00:40:57.039



at all.78400:40:57.559 --> 00:40:59.920



Well, nineteen eighty was twenty years So that's what you were.78500:41:00.360 --> 00:41:01.719



That's what you really need to remember.78600:41:02.159 --> 00:41:08.880



Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, I appreciate you know,78700:41:08.960 --> 00:41:11.599



reading what you what you're doing. It's probably a lot78800:41:11.639 --> 00:41:14.400



of liquor I'm never gonna taste. Some of it is78900:41:14.440 --> 00:41:16.199



like out of my price range, and some of it79000:41:16.239 --> 00:41:19.920



is just out out of my out of my interest vertical,79100:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.039



you know, or whatever. However, the thing that always blows79200:41:24.039 --> 00:41:28.880



me away when I read reviews is tasting notes and79300:41:29.039 --> 00:41:36.320



identifying those particular flavors and smells of things that are79400:41:36.360 --> 00:41:39.000



not necessarily related to liquor at all that end.79500:41:38.960 --> 00:41:39.559



Up in reviews.79600:41:39.639 --> 00:41:42.400



And like I you know, sometimes I can get this79700:41:42.519 --> 00:41:44.840



or that or whatever. If I've like read it ahead of.79800:41:44.800 --> 00:41:48.159



Time, or I could you have something smoky, I can79900:41:48.199 --> 00:41:48.480



get it.80000:41:48.599 --> 00:41:51.760



If it's if it's you know, if it's tastes like medicine,80100:41:51.800 --> 00:41:54.360



I can get that. If you know, if it's sweet,80200:41:54.559 --> 00:41:56.719



if it has a little bit of a fruitiness to it.80300:41:57.039 --> 00:41:59.679



But I couldn't tell you what fruit I would put80400:41:59.679 --> 00:42:02.119



it on the list. It's like something really strong, like80500:42:02.119 --> 00:42:04.760



an apricod or a peach or an orange or whatever.80600:42:06.039 --> 00:42:09.519



So I tend to think, and I know this is true,80700:42:09.639 --> 00:42:12.840



like in the in the in the world of sense80800:42:13.000 --> 00:42:18.800



that people, some people have a very very refined.80900:42:18.400 --> 00:42:20.760



Nose for for.81000:42:22.199 --> 00:42:25.280



Cologne and you know, developing colone and perfume and whatever whatever.81100:42:26.000 --> 00:42:29.000



How did you develop that for spirits?81200:42:30.599 --> 00:42:33.159



A lot of practice, Yeah, and a lot of like writing.81300:42:33.920 --> 00:42:37.280



Like before I ever wrote reviews for an outlet and81400:42:37.320 --> 00:42:40.320



got paid for it, I was writing reviews for myself81500:42:40.360 --> 00:42:42.239



because I was kind of curree. I wanted to train that. Like,81600:42:42.639 --> 00:42:45.239



I don't think I smell or taste necessarily a lot81700:42:45.239 --> 00:42:47.880



better than the average person. I think that that can81800:42:47.920 --> 00:42:51.440



come with practice. I think being able to translate that81900:42:51.679 --> 00:42:55.960



to specific things that are relatable to people, because taste82000:42:56.000 --> 00:42:58.960



is subjective, right, Like I might like something that you don't, Yeah, right,82100:42:59.079 --> 00:43:01.519



Like like I don't like cucumbers.82200:43:01.360 --> 00:43:03.639



Really right, I don't love cucumbers, but I don't hate82300:43:03.679 --> 00:43:06.239



them at all. I'm pretty you know, agnostic.82400:43:06.239 --> 00:43:10.400



A lot of people love cucumbers great. But you know,82500:43:10.519 --> 00:43:12.440



so it's kind of like, how do I How am82600:43:12.480 --> 00:43:16.840



I translating things to things that people will like understand82700:43:16.920 --> 00:43:20.159



where maybe they can get a sense of what I'm experiencing.82800:43:20.599 --> 00:43:22.599



And it's really just less about like, oh am I82900:43:22.639 --> 00:43:26.039



getting this right? And more about am I writing down83000:43:26.599 --> 00:43:28.480



things in such a way that it's getting across what83100:43:28.519 --> 00:43:34.760



I'm experiencing, And like there are correct and incorrect things,83200:43:34.840 --> 00:43:36.760



right Like bourbon, you're going to taste a lot of vanilla.83300:43:36.800 --> 00:43:38.400



That's just the science mind it, because they have these83400:43:38.400 --> 00:43:40.719



certain compounds that get into the liquid, like you know83500:43:40.760 --> 00:43:44.880



what I mean, And like you know, for a sherry83600:43:44.960 --> 00:43:48.360



cask aged scotch, you're going to get certain flavors that83700:43:48.320 --> 00:43:50.800



they are, right, they are flavors you're you're probably gonna get.83800:43:50.840 --> 00:43:54.840



But I like to think of it more as am83900:43:54.880 --> 00:43:59.800



I accurately conveying what I'm experiencing such that someone might84000:44:01.800 --> 00:44:04.719



be able to put themselves in my shoes when reading84100:44:04.760 --> 00:44:08.760



the article, and they might get something very different, or84200:44:08.760 --> 00:44:10.599



they might get things significantly different if they were to84300:44:10.639 --> 00:44:12.679



go taste the spirit themselves. And hopefully they will and84400:44:12.719 --> 00:44:15.360



they can compare right, and sometimes those things will sink up.84500:44:15.400 --> 00:44:18.599



Sometimes they won't. But I'm trying to really do I84600:44:18.599 --> 00:44:21.119



think all that I can all that I can honestly do,84700:44:21.159 --> 00:44:23.880



which is give an accurate representation of what I experience.84800:44:24.320 --> 00:44:27.079



And it's just practice. It's like anything else. It's like,84900:44:32.239 --> 00:44:35.440



you know, I don't write music, but like if you85000:44:35.480 --> 00:44:37.239



were to ask me, how do I do that? Or85100:44:37.239 --> 00:44:40.440



like I wouldn't know where to start. It seems so intimidating,85200:44:40.519 --> 00:44:43.719



But you learn and you practice and repetition, etc.85300:44:43.920 --> 00:44:44.119



Etc.85400:44:44.360 --> 00:44:45.920



To where I can I can kind of switch it85500:44:45.960 --> 00:44:48.039



on and I'm like, cool, I'm now writing tasting notes,85600:44:48.079 --> 00:44:49.119



like I'm in that mode.85700:44:51.920 --> 00:44:56.920



That makes sense to me. It just it is so85800:44:57.079 --> 00:45:00.400



OPI to me, I guess this is the best way85900:45:00.440 --> 00:45:00.840



to say it.86000:45:00.920 --> 00:45:05.239



But I mean I I get it. I mean I86100:45:05.239 --> 00:45:07.639



get where you're coming from when I when I read86200:45:07.639 --> 00:45:11.960



those reviews. But I would have to do a lot86300:45:11.960 --> 00:45:14.360



of work to be able to to pull those notes86400:45:14.360 --> 00:45:15.760



out of it myself, for sure.86500:45:16.639 --> 00:45:18.440



It is the thing is I will say, it is86600:45:18.480 --> 00:45:21.239



a lot of work, Like I will spend certain reviews,86700:45:21.280 --> 00:45:28.320



I will spend hours on like not our hours hours. Yeah,86800:45:28.360 --> 00:45:31.000



so it's not just like taste a whiskey, that's what86900:45:31.079 --> 00:45:36.000



I taste like. Sometimes you're like you're spending time with it,87000:45:36.039 --> 00:45:38.679



and it can it can it can often feel a87100:45:38.719 --> 00:45:45.159



little bit grueling. Actually, and again I don't I joke,87200:45:45.280 --> 00:45:47.440



and it's true. I don't get paid to drink whiskey.87300:45:48.000 --> 00:45:53.760



I get paid to write a thousand words. Yeah, after87400:45:53.800 --> 00:45:56.760



I drink the whiskey, right, Like, I'm not getting paid87500:45:56.800 --> 00:45:58.599



drink the whiskey. I'm paying to do stuff after I87600:45:58.679 --> 00:45:59.280



drink the whiskey.87700:45:59.360 --> 00:46:00.000



Right. Yeah.87800:46:00.239 --> 00:46:02.719



That's that's the thing that has that carries value to87900:46:02.880 --> 00:46:04.079



to whoever's paying you.88000:46:04.199 --> 00:46:07.880



Is yes, yeah, that makes sense. Have you ever had.88100:46:07.840 --> 00:46:12.360



Any kind of uh like backlash or negative feedback from88200:46:12.400 --> 00:46:13.880



reviews that you're given that we're not.88300:46:14.320 --> 00:46:16.159



As positive as people were expecting.88400:46:16.599 --> 00:46:21.199



Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I don't want to name.88500:46:21.559 --> 00:46:23.239



No, I wouldn't. I would never ask that.88600:46:24.079 --> 00:46:29.079



One thing I will say is that I think the88700:46:29.199 --> 00:46:32.960



spirits industry, and I speak for spirits. I speak for like,88800:46:33.440 --> 00:46:40.840



for whiskey, agave spirits, rum, vodka, gin brandies. I speak88900:46:40.880 --> 00:46:44.119



for spirits, not wine. I don't do much work in wine.89000:46:44.119 --> 00:46:45.599



I've done a little bit, I don't do a lot.89100:46:45.719 --> 00:46:48.000



It's a very different world. So I'm not saying it's89200:46:48.039 --> 00:46:50.599



good or bad. I just can't speak as accurately to89300:46:50.679 --> 00:46:57.239



that in spirits, whether you're on the whether you're making spirits,89400:46:57.280 --> 00:46:58.760



or whether you're on the corporate side, or whether you're89500:46:58.760 --> 00:47:02.079



on the media side. There's a pretty good understanding that89600:47:02.840 --> 00:47:05.480



every distillery, like let's take a Let's take a bourbon89700:47:05.519 --> 00:47:08.760



distillery for example. Let's take a distillary that makes bourbon.89800:47:10.000 --> 00:47:14.239



That distillery will make really good bourbon. It will also89900:47:14.280 --> 00:47:16.760



make some okay bourbon, and it will also make some90000:47:16.800 --> 00:47:20.559



bad bourbon. Now, those ratios might differ from one place90100:47:20.599 --> 00:47:25.639



to the next, but there is not a distiller, there's90200:47:25.639 --> 00:47:28.159



not an experience distiller in the world who will tell90300:47:28.199 --> 00:47:31.480



you that everything they make is the exact same quality level.90400:47:31.880 --> 00:47:35.039



Because there is so much variation when it comes to90500:47:35.280 --> 00:47:42.679



things like the cask type, aging environment, like the temperature,90600:47:42.800 --> 00:47:46.440



the ambient temperature outside during fermentation, that if impact, Like90700:47:46.760 --> 00:47:50.559



all these are thousand different factors, right that could impact90800:47:50.559 --> 00:47:54.920



the ultimate flavor of spirit And so you know, ultimately90900:47:55.079 --> 00:47:57.719



you are curating every particular release. But like, if you91000:47:57.760 --> 00:48:00.159



go to a warehouse that has twenty thousand barrels, I91100:48:00.159 --> 00:48:02.599



guarantee you it'll be some you like, and I guarantee91200:48:02.599 --> 00:48:04.880



you there'll be some you don't like. And that is91300:48:06.199 --> 00:48:09.000



there's a lot of space in between. Yeah, And because91400:48:09.000 --> 00:48:13.880



of that, I think there's a general kindness and understanding91500:48:13.880 --> 00:48:16.599



in the spirit space that not everything is for everyone91600:48:17.159 --> 00:48:19.599



and not everything is the best product in the world.91700:48:21.119 --> 00:48:24.719



Yeah, I could see how that would be the case. Well,91800:48:24.840 --> 00:48:28.400



I mean there's so many different so many different industries91900:48:28.440 --> 00:48:32.800



where you produce a product at multiple price points too,92000:48:33.599 --> 00:48:37.719



you know that makes sense. Actually sort of makes me92100:48:37.760 --> 00:48:40.079



think about something that was laughing at.92200:48:40.119 --> 00:48:41.280



It made me laugh the other day.92300:48:42.320 --> 00:48:45.679



I was thinking about all the TV movies and TV92400:48:45.800 --> 00:48:48.559



shows and movies that I've seen over the years where92500:48:48.599 --> 00:48:50.679



somebody goes into a bar and orders a drink, and92600:48:50.719 --> 00:48:52.239



the way they order the drink and they say, give92700:48:52.280 --> 00:48:53.880



me a Scotch, give me a bourbon. It's like, how92800:48:53.880 --> 00:48:55.199



the fuck do they know what they're getting?92900:48:56.679 --> 00:49:01.480



Just listen. There's a time in place sometimes you're just like,93000:49:02.719 --> 00:49:06.000



give me a It's oftentimes if you notice people are like,93100:49:06.039 --> 00:49:08.320



it's they're often coming up from like a very frustrating93200:49:08.360 --> 00:49:10.199



scene and they sit down there like, give me a scotch,93300:49:10.320 --> 00:49:15.920



you know what I mean? Yeah, but that would Yeah,93400:49:15.920 --> 00:49:17.440



that's like my nightmare because then I'd be like, well,93500:49:17.480 --> 00:49:19.559



what did you give me? Why did you give me that? Like,93600:49:19.840 --> 00:49:20.840



what did you what?93700:49:21.239 --> 00:49:24.320



I was like, Yeah, what was your read on me93800:49:24.639 --> 00:49:27.000



that made you decide that was the thing to give me?93900:49:27.639 --> 00:49:30.480



Yeah, that's funny, that's funny.94000:49:32.239 --> 00:49:35.400



Can we take a few minutes and talk about what94100:49:35.559 --> 00:49:39.280



might be a way in for somebody who's interested in94200:49:41.880 --> 00:49:47.559



tasting developing a taste for whiskey bourbon?94300:49:48.800 --> 00:49:53.719



For sure? I think the best thing is to taste94400:49:53.719 --> 00:49:57.320



with people, is to taste with other people. I think94500:49:57.360 --> 00:49:59.679



that it is not it's easier said than done. Right,94600:50:00.079 --> 00:50:02.559



live in areas where there's not a big whiskey community, right, like,94700:50:02.599 --> 00:50:06.440



for example, even in the US. Take this as an example.94800:50:06.559 --> 00:50:09.119



I know people who are really into scotch and they94900:50:09.119 --> 00:50:13.760



live in an area where the predominant whiskey community is bourbon. Right,95000:50:13.960 --> 00:50:15.599



Nothing wrong with that? It just is what it is.95100:50:15.800 --> 00:50:17.440



And I know people vice versa. I know a lot95200:50:17.480 --> 00:50:19.400



of people who are like, oh, you know, I really95300:50:20.639 --> 00:50:25.559



love scott or I love bourbon, but like most of95400:50:25.559 --> 00:50:30.840



the people around me are Scots shrinkers, right, And I95500:50:30.880 --> 00:50:32.920



think the best thing one can do is find a95600:50:32.920 --> 00:50:38.559



community of people who also enjoy whiskey or the spirit95700:50:38.599 --> 00:50:40.239



that you enjoy or you want to learn more about.95800:50:40.440 --> 00:50:43.360



And if that community isn't already established, build it yourself,95900:50:43.480 --> 00:50:44.920



Like find a friend who wants to go on that96000:50:45.000 --> 00:50:49.239



journey with you. And tasting things with people and talking96100:50:49.239 --> 00:50:52.360



about what you're tasting is I think the most fun part.96200:50:52.360 --> 00:50:54.920



It's something I do regularly. Like I am a quote96300:50:54.960 --> 00:50:57.960



unquote professional, but I still regularly have people over to96400:50:58.000 --> 00:50:59.320



my home or go over to buddies homes and we96500:50:59.360 --> 00:51:01.360



all bring bottles do like we call them bottle shares,96600:51:02.159 --> 00:51:04.239



and we're like tasting the same stuff and we're just96700:51:04.239 --> 00:51:05.679



talking about it, like what are you tasting on this?96800:51:06.000 --> 00:51:06.159



Oh?96900:51:06.159 --> 00:51:08.880



What do you compare this to? Like, you know, this97000:51:09.000 --> 00:51:11.719



is a product that's you know from this is a97100:51:11.800 --> 00:51:13.880



gym Beam product, how does this product compare to their97200:51:13.920 --> 00:51:17.119



other products? And honestly, just having conversations around what you're97300:51:17.159 --> 00:51:20.119



tasting is the best way to learn because if you're97400:51:20.159 --> 00:51:22.840



in conversation with someone else, you're going to come to97500:51:22.880 --> 00:51:25.440



some interesting conclusions and you're gonna find you're gonna you're97600:51:25.440 --> 00:51:28.079



gonna learn something about the spirit.97700:51:29.280 --> 00:51:32.280



That makes sense, that makes sense to me. Yeah, And97800:51:33.719 --> 00:51:35.840



like if particularly if you, I guess, if you know97900:51:38.599 --> 00:51:42.719



generally what you like, and I think that there's I98000:51:42.719 --> 00:51:44.920



think there's maybe been an Internet ban on the on98100:51:44.960 --> 00:51:48.679



the phrase flavor profile, or at least there should be, But.98200:51:50.119 --> 00:51:54.280



I I don't hate flavor actually like that that's the term. Yeah,98300:51:54.320 --> 00:51:55.800



I'm okay with that, You're okay with it, But that's98400:51:55.800 --> 00:51:56.480



just me. That's just me.98500:51:56.559 --> 00:51:58.800



But if you know that you that that you like,98600:51:58.840 --> 00:52:00.840



you're like you're a little sweeter, You're like, you're a98700:52:00.880 --> 00:52:05.199



little smokier, you like liquor a little a little darker,98800:52:05.239 --> 00:52:09.360



a little lighter, a little fruitier or whatever I suppose98900:52:09.400 --> 00:52:11.400



there pass in. But how do you I guess you99000:52:11.440 --> 00:52:15.840



would never know if you if there are things that99100:52:15.960 --> 00:52:21.239



you had not experienced before that don't fit those profiles99200:52:22.159 --> 00:52:24.960



unless you and that you happen to end up liking,99300:52:25.039 --> 00:52:26.719



unless you just try them, Unless you can.99400:52:26.960 --> 00:52:30.719



You can, I think too. The thing reason I like99500:52:30.800 --> 00:52:34.760



drinking with people is it oftentimes helps bust your own stereotypes.99600:52:34.800 --> 00:52:40.679



For example, like the number of bourbon drinkers that find99700:52:40.679 --> 00:52:43.360



out they love peeded scotch, and not all scotch is99800:52:43.360 --> 00:52:45.320



peeded by the way, right people think sometimes they think99900:52:45.360 --> 00:52:48.639



in America, we think scotch equals smoking. No, that's not. Like.100000:52:48.960 --> 00:52:51.679



We can taste some things that are delightfully light and100100:52:51.760 --> 00:52:55.119



fruity and taste like, you know, the best bite of100200:52:55.159 --> 00:52:58.280



papaya you've ever had, right, and like that's in the100300:52:58.280 --> 00:53:02.920



world of scotch. But the number of bourbon drinkers feel like,100400:53:02.920 --> 00:53:04.719



I don't like smoky stuff, and then they drink with100500:53:04.800 --> 00:53:07.320



people and it's like, Okay, well you didn't like that.100600:53:07.360 --> 00:53:09.760



What did you have that with smoky that you didn't like? Okay,100700:53:09.760 --> 00:53:11.400



what's the context you had it in? Did you have100800:53:11.440 --> 00:53:13.800



it right after you had a bourbon because that might100900:53:13.840 --> 00:53:18.599



be like extra jarring, right, But maybe like this, maybe101000:53:18.639 --> 00:53:20.239



this is this is actually a pede in scotch, but101100:53:20.280 --> 00:53:23.400



it's in a very different flavor category or flavor profile.101200:53:24.079 --> 00:53:27.039



So I think that Listen, sometimes you're just not gonna101300:53:27.079 --> 00:53:29.960



like stuff right, Like, I have a buddy who has101400:53:30.000 --> 00:53:33.519



a great palette. He's a he's a big bourbon drinker,101500:53:33.559 --> 00:53:37.519



and he doesn't like rye whiskey, so he prefers bourbons101600:53:37.599 --> 00:53:39.960



with a low with he prefers whiskey with low rye101700:53:40.000 --> 00:53:40.639



content or.101800:53:40.599 --> 00:53:42.360



No rye interest, right.101900:53:42.920 --> 00:53:45.440



And most bourbon in the US has some rye in it.102000:53:45.400 --> 00:53:48.000



It's it's it's a flavoringingrain. It adds a little bit102100:53:48.039 --> 00:53:50.719



of it adds a little bit of something something to102200:53:50.800 --> 00:53:52.960



a lot of bourbon. There's also bourbon with no rye,102300:53:53.280 --> 00:53:56.679



but as the rye content increases, he tends he tends102400:53:56.719 --> 00:54:00.480



to like the spirit less. And this is a tried102500:54:00.480 --> 00:54:03.400



everything under the sun, and that's just what he likes102600:54:03.400 --> 00:54:04.000



and doesn't like.102700:54:04.519 --> 00:54:04.719



Right.102800:54:05.119 --> 00:54:10.519



But I think flavors often contextual, not always, but often contextual,102900:54:11.440 --> 00:54:14.039



And what you like in a certain setting might be103000:54:14.079 --> 00:54:16.239



different than what you like in a different setting. And103100:54:16.280 --> 00:54:17.599



I think that's why it's so fun to be in103200:54:17.639 --> 00:54:22.159



conversation with these things and be in conversation with people103300:54:22.199 --> 00:54:22.639



about them.103400:54:22.920 --> 00:54:24.280



Yeah, that makes sense.103500:54:25.639 --> 00:54:29.119



Do do you find that people have different people have103600:54:29.159 --> 00:54:31.760



a fallow in a different points in the spectrum of103700:54:31.800 --> 00:54:34.280



being able to like if they're tasting, being able to103800:54:34.400 --> 00:54:37.280



sort of put the last thing aside and clear their103900:54:37.320 --> 00:54:39.960



palate enough to move on to the next thing.104000:54:41.599 --> 00:54:43.360



No one's as good at that as they want, as104100:54:43.400 --> 00:54:45.760



they they like, as they want to be, not as104200:54:45.800 --> 00:54:47.559



they think they're but as they want to be. It's tough,104300:54:47.599 --> 00:54:49.360



and your your palette fatigues is a real thing.104400:54:49.760 --> 00:54:53.159



Yeah, it is. Yeah, I just.104500:54:54.679 --> 00:54:57.679



Sometimes it's sometimes it's easy, like and I'm and I've104600:54:57.679 --> 00:55:00.519



I think I've tasted more beers in beer flights then104700:55:00.559 --> 00:55:06.079



I have have whiskeys, and I think you're maybe not104800:55:06.400 --> 00:55:07.760



as conscious of.104900:55:09.599 --> 00:55:11.280



Trying to clear your palate in between. There's like, oh,105000:55:11.360 --> 00:55:13.199



it's take a little this, a little bit of that, whatever.105100:55:13.280 --> 00:55:15.800



And it's often that kind of the second time around105200:55:16.400 --> 00:55:18.239



when you come back to it, that you have a105300:55:18.239 --> 00:55:20.239



different feeling about it and you might actually like.105400:55:20.199 --> 00:55:23.559



It better than the first time. Yeah, And I don't105500:55:23.599 --> 00:55:24.880



know why that is exactly.105600:55:25.599 --> 00:55:28.920



There's just something necessarily something about it that that rises105700:55:30.000 --> 00:55:32.159



and part of it has has been sitting there longer,105800:55:32.199 --> 00:55:35.440



and so it opens up a little bit and it's105900:55:35.480 --> 00:55:36.320



a little friendlier.106000:55:37.360 --> 00:55:40.519



It's also like if we don't know what to expect,106100:55:40.559 --> 00:55:42.760



if what we try. And sometimes if we try something,106200:55:42.760 --> 00:55:45.199



if it's very different than what we're expecting, it can106300:55:45.239 --> 00:55:49.079



be an unpleasant experience. Sometimes it can be a pleasant experience.106400:55:49.360 --> 00:55:52.440



But if our expectations are a little more tempered, sometimes106500:55:52.440 --> 00:55:55.079



we can enjoy it more. Right, Like if you give106600:55:55.119 --> 00:55:57.719



a bourbon again to use a smoke example, if you106700:55:57.719 --> 00:56:01.039



give a bourbon drink or something try this and they106800:56:01.039 --> 00:56:03.679



are a too to bourbon and they try something that's106900:56:03.719 --> 00:56:08.679



a heavily peded scotch, it they might not love it, right,107000:56:09.199 --> 00:56:10.920



But if they know going in it's like, hey, I107100:56:10.960 --> 00:56:14.679



actually would love to try you on some impeded scotches107200:56:15.079 --> 00:56:17.159



And if they're open to would you be open to that? Right?107300:56:17.719 --> 00:56:19.400



And it's like okay, they might go in with a107400:56:19.400 --> 00:56:21.880



more open mind and it's not going to be this107500:56:22.000 --> 00:56:25.800



like this odd juxtaposition between what they expected and what107600:56:25.840 --> 00:56:27.880



they got. The two things might be more in line107700:56:28.360 --> 00:56:31.639



or more sympatic or more SYMPATICO.107800:56:31.280 --> 00:56:32.719



Yeah, that makes sense.107900:56:34.400 --> 00:56:40.360



What's your feeling on investing in Like I'm not necessarily108000:56:40.400 --> 00:56:44.960



calling out for for for suggestions, this is not a108100:56:45.000 --> 00:56:50.079



fantasy football, but what is your feeling about that?108200:56:50.199 --> 00:56:52.119



Is that? Is that something that.108300:56:51.679 --> 00:56:55.920



That is worthwhile and only at certain levels, or is108400:56:55.960 --> 00:56:56.920



it not worthwhile at all?108500:56:57.119 --> 00:57:01.960



Or I think that is. I do not give investment108600:57:02.039 --> 00:57:05.679



advice or really make much commentary on investing in spirits.108700:57:06.400 --> 00:57:12.119



Spirits are consumable, they are perishable. Yeah, the market is unpredictable. Yeah,108800:57:13.039 --> 00:57:14.440



proceed at your own risk.108900:57:14.760 --> 00:57:18.719



Yeah that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense.109000:57:18.800 --> 00:57:25.199



I mean people everybody's always pursuing the the undervalued asset, right,109100:57:25.440 --> 00:57:28.920



I mean, and they want to capitalize on an undervalued109200:57:28.960 --> 00:57:33.079



asset and then eventually flip it to somebody at some point.109300:57:34.599 --> 00:57:36.400



And I think we're seeing a softening right now of109400:57:36.440 --> 00:57:38.320



the risky market. I don't think it's going to stay109500:57:38.360 --> 00:57:40.679



that way forever. I think these thinks ebb and flow right,109600:57:40.760 --> 00:57:44.119



but proceed, proceed with caution, do your research.109700:57:44.360 --> 00:57:46.440



Actually, that's a that's just kind of sort of my109800:57:46.440 --> 00:57:48.119



final question in the spirits.109900:57:49.280 --> 00:57:52.719



Area here, what what is your gut on on the110000:57:52.760 --> 00:57:56.800



market in general for spirits in the US.110100:57:58.639 --> 00:58:02.159



My really, my good friend Isaac Winter, who's the master110200:58:02.199 --> 00:58:05.039



blender of High West, said it well, and he said110300:58:05.119 --> 00:58:09.400



he thinks we're in an overhang where production has outstripped demand.110400:58:10.440 --> 00:58:13.039



And I think that the spirit's market is I do think.110500:58:13.079 --> 00:58:16.119



I'm not I'm not bearish on it, but I think110600:58:16.119 --> 00:58:19.559



that we are going through a market correction such that110700:58:19.760 --> 00:58:25.320



maybe COVID was not the best indicator of long term Yeah.110800:58:25.519 --> 00:58:30.079



Yeah, it's like housing, same same story with housing, I think, Yeah, yeah,110900:58:30.239 --> 00:58:33.679



that sort of makes sense. Well, David, I want to111000:58:33.719 --> 00:58:37.280



thank you very much. I enjoy every conversation with you,111100:58:37.360 --> 00:58:40.719



but recording them and sharing with other them with others111200:58:42.000 --> 00:58:43.960



helps me keep the show going to be.111300:58:45.880 --> 00:58:46.559



I know you did.111400:58:46.760 --> 00:58:49.840



You did Barbin on your own for quite a while,111500:58:49.880 --> 00:58:54.679



and so you understand the whole dynamic of keeping a111600:58:54.679 --> 00:58:56.400



show going largely by yourself.111700:58:56.480 --> 00:59:00.960



But I do understand, and I ampathy and I listen.111800:59:01.159 --> 00:59:04.679



I love that I was a fan of your podcasting111900:59:04.719 --> 00:59:07.119



before I was your friend, and it's an honor to112000:59:07.159 --> 00:59:09.119



be on here, and I so appreciate you having me,112100:59:10.039 --> 00:59:12.400



and I hope people enjoy this conversation as much as112200:59:12.400 --> 00:59:13.239



I've enjoyed talking to you.112300:59:13.320 --> 00:59:15.840



Jim awesome. How can people find you, David?112400:59:16.559 --> 00:59:19.239



You can find me on Instagram at David Thomas twe112500:59:19.519 --> 00:59:26.480



You can find me on x at d underscore tow. Yeah.112600:59:26.519 --> 00:59:32.519



Those are great, excellent. I was you ever noticed it?112700:59:32.599 --> 00:59:36.159



Like authors and and and serial killers.112800:59:36.760 --> 00:59:37.639



Three names.112900:59:39.119 --> 00:59:42.599



Well, you know, I'm not gonna say which I am.113000:59:42.800 --> 00:59:48.679



But I know it's I totally get it, all right.113100:59:48.719 --> 01:00:05.239



Well, thanks a lot, David,